Curse

HDS · Feb 17, 2006, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

In case you didn't notice, LBS mentioned names -- no fingers pointed. Is there any particular reason why you feel the post was directed at you?

Possibly because of the "YOUR"...

Combine that with the fact that i am the only one who is defending some scammers who were 'forced' into it.

Quote:

That's because those were my words, not LBS's. Anyone can justify stealing food if it is a matter of survival. However, stealing for only self gain and nothing else is both evil and selfish... period.

I menationed that because you quoted LBS and continued with "Absolutley agreed"

ab·so·lute·ly P Pronunciation Key (bs-ltl, bs-ltl)
adv.
Definitely and completely; unquestionably.

lord_shar · Feb 17, 2006, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by lg5000

btw, I don't endorse scamming.

Ok, I'm not in the US, so God only knows what your laws say about it. Yes, Scamming is Fraud, Fraud is illegal. It is however, no Theft.

I disagree. Modern laws recognize virtual crimes and identity theft as actual theft, even if no physical belongings ever move or exchange hands.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lg5000

Going back to the African email which offers lots of money.. how many people do you think have had money 'stolen' from them? Money they freely pay these scammers btw. And how many do you think got their money back?

If it was theft, one arrest would get them their money back. Fraud... one arrest and they still don't see the money back. Why? They handed it over willingly.

Real life con-artists still get arrested when they promise goods that are never delivered. GW is a virtual world, but the criminal act is the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lg5000

Well.. yes it is. He could have had a friend or lawyer with him to double check the information.. You're gonna tell me he didn't realise he can't read until then?

Hint: LBS is a real life lawyer. Please don't preach law here unless you're also a professional attorney. Otherwise, you're setting yourself up for thorough "p0wnage" like some other poor souls in the past.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lg5000

Ohh.. big words in caps.. try working with people who fall for real life scams and you'll see that while you think maybe you should feel sorry for them for loosing all their money, you can't help but wonder what sort of person would spend the type of money lost in scams before contacting the authorities about it.

It's like coming post searing and still taking someones offer and selling them black dye for 50g! (bad example). Hence, people who fall for the scams actually deserve it.

I can never blame the victim, since I might find myself in a body bag some day despite all precautions.

glountz · Feb 17, 2006, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

I can never blame the victim, since I might find myself in a body bag some day despite all precautions.

According to HDS, if you are shot, it is your own responsability for not being able to avoid the bullet. If you could but didn't manage to, it's all your fault.

Blue Steel · Feb 17, 2006, 11:04 PM // 23:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by lg5000

Ohh.. big words in caps.. try working with people who fall for real life scams and you'll see that while you think maybe you should feel sorry for them for loosing all their money, you can't help but wonder what sort of person would spend the type of money lost in scams before contacting the authorities about it.

Hence, people who fall for the scams actually deserve it.

I am an attorney. I work with publically traded international companies that engage in transactions of tens and hundreds of billions of dollars. In corporate mergers and acquisitions and everything else, there are frauds that occur and I deal with it daily. Even with teams of attorneys and extremely sophisticated businessmen and women all around the negotiation table, frauds occur. Please understand that people have a self-interested motivation to avoid falling victim to any fraud, but all of us in society have a moral duty not to commit fraud, and it is MUCH easier to lie and cheat than it is to be vigilant at every moment in unfamiliar contexts to prevent scams and fraud.

No one deserves to be victimized. Ever. I find it morally reprehensible that someone would suggest that people deserve to be ripped off.

We all take reasonable precautions to protect ourselves, but dishonesty is a tax on society, and every item bought and sold costs more because of the dishonest in the world: the transaction costs, the legal fees, the investigations, the security gates in stores, and so forth could all be avoided if people were simply honest.

If you set your mind to stealing, you can figure out exactly how to catch people when they are most vulnerable. It should never, ever be done, and anyone advocating it or justifying it is encouraging evil in the world.

lord_shar · Feb 17, 2006, 11:04 PM // 23:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDS

Possibly because of the "YOUR"...

Combine that with the fact that i am the only one who is defending some scammers who were 'forced' into it.

I took the language at face value, forcing the reader to re-evaluate his or her personal opinion about scamming if he/she attempts to rationalize or justify an evil act.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDS

I menationed that because you quoted LBS and continued with "Absolutley agreed"

ab·so·lute·ly P Pronunciation Key (bs-ltl, bs-ltl)
adv.
Definitely and completely; unquestionably.

Agreement posts don't require only paraphrased content. It's OK to add more than just a big *nod*

lg5000 · Feb 17, 2006, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Yeah, real life con artists get arrested.. for fraud. The money lost to these fraudsters is never seen again by the people who lost it originally.

Btw, how am I preaching to a Lawyer by pointing out Mr. I-cant-read should have known that one well in advance and had someone who can read with him? Come on.. the amount of money that example had in it means that anyone with common sense is going to have at least one other person with them.. unless.. they were doing something illegal, in which case, they deserve to be scammed.

Btw, nice to see you're defending Blue Steel with such passion

Edit: I posted before seeing Blue Steel's reply.

Ok, I mainly have knowledge of your average person falling for scams, not high-end businesses. But as you said, there are safty features in place to avoid being scammed.

And while I already stated that I don't endorse scams, I'm sorry, but if you're involved in something illegal or borderlining illegal, I can't feel sorry for you. Nor can I feel sorry for you when you can't spend the extra 30secs looking at what was offered in a gw trade window.

{IceFire} · Feb 17, 2006, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by My Sweet Revenga

Ouch. Are you the guy who tried to buy a ton of ectos, ended up getting mursatt tokens instead, and then formed a team to journey to get fissure only to find out at the end that you didn't have ectos but in fact you were scammed? Thought I read that somewhere.

no. im not that dumb.

it was an extremely well-thought-out and executed scam. i hate scammers.

lord_shar · Feb 17, 2006, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by lg5000

Yeah, real life con artists get arrested.. for fraud. The money lost to these fraudsters is never seen again by the people who lost it originally.

Fraud, (grand) theft, conspiracy, (grand) larceny, etc... just the tip of the iceberg.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lg5000

Btw, how am I preaching to a Lawyer by pointing out Mr. I-cant-read should have known that one well in advance and had someone who can read with him? Come on.. the amount of money that example had in it means that anyone with common sense is going to have at least one other person with them.. unless.. they were doing something illegal, in which case, they deserve to be scammed.

Sorry, but I couldn't comprehend what you were trying to communicate above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lg5000

Btw, nice to see you're defending Blue Steel with such passion

Sorry if my tone sounds rather blunt, but I call things as I see it. I tend to be direct about clear cut right vs. wrong, and this occasionally ruffles more than a few feathers. Perhaps my line of work in the financial industry also influences my way of thinking. We deal with plenty of systems to detect and prevent fraud.

lg5000 · Feb 17, 2006, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

Sorry, but I couldn't comprehend what you were trying to communicate above.

Right... I need coffee... I had mis-read both your coment to my quote and the original bit I quoted.

What I meant to say though, was that if you're involved in a illegal transaction or semi-illgal transaction why would anyone feel sorry for you when you get scamed? (obviously, not talking about gw here)

And I love how things typed out never come across as nicely as when spoken, I wasn't picking on you for defending Blue Steel

Tijger · Feb 17, 2006, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Steel

No one deserves to be victimized. Ever. I find it morally reprehensible that someone would suggest that people deserve to be ripped off.

We all take reasonable precautions to protect ourselves, but dishonesty is a tax on society, and every item bought and sold costs more because of the dishonest in the world: the transaction costs, the legal fees, the investigations, the security gates in stores, and so forth could all be avoided if people were simply honest.

If you set your mind to stealing, you can figure out exactly how to catch people when they are most vulnerable. It should never, ever be done, and anyone advocating it or justifying it is encouraging evil in the world.

Quoted for truth and wisdom.

When my wife asked a scammer (the gp instead of plat type scam) why they did it the answer was "because you're all f*cking stupid", her smartass reply was, ofcourse, "Smarter than you obviously since I didnt fall for it".

As I've said before we are all responsible for our own trades and for double checking amounts and items but not doing so is NOT an excuse nor is it acceptable to take advantage when people do not do this.
If you scam other players you clearly do not belong in the game and should be removed.

AFAIK Anet should ban people who do such things on a regular basis and I know from experience that they rarely just try their scams on only one person.

Lord Iowerth · Feb 17, 2006, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Well, legal standpoints aside ... there are basically two types of scammers as far as I am concerned:

1) The people that scam, and are too dense to realize that what they are doing is wrong and hurts other people. These are the only scammers I feel any remote sense of pity for. I mean, I'm a very nice and generous person ... chances are if you're rough-up for money, and you ask me nicely for my help: i'm more than happy to. I'm thinking some of these folks may genuinely at a mental disatvantage, and just not know any better. Truly if one would take the time to explain some things to them, they might stand a chance of becoming a decent, honest player one day ... That brings us to ..

2) The people that scam, know it's wrong, and don't give a crap that it hurts other people. These are the ones that deserve no pity whatsoever, and in fact are in need of a good smiting from whatever diety they believe in (oh, and dieties please contact me if you are busy elsewhere, i'd be happy to hand out a few smitings

) I'm sure that these #2 scammers get a great sense of enjoyment at another's misfortune/good-nature/whatever else you'd like to attribute the facilitation of being scammed to ... apart from where the blame really lies: in the scammer himself/herself.

I suppose the real problem would be to differentiate between the two.

To whoever first suggested GM's in this post: /signed. GM's can't be everywhere, all the time, but they can at least be a bastion of hope to the game community when they take, hopefully quite visible, action against a violator.

lord_shar · Feb 17, 2006, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by lg5000

Right... I need coffee... I had mis-read both your coment to my quote and the original bit I quoted.

What I meant to say though, was that if you're involved in a illegal transaction or semi-illgal transaction why would anyone feel sorry for you when you get scamed? (obviously, not talking about gw here)

And I love how things typed out never come across as nicely as when spoken, I wasn't picking on you for defending Blue Steel

1st, I would never involve myself in any shady transaction. Bargain hunting is fine so long as both parties are adequately informed about current prices. If I find out post-transaction that I got too good a deal, I tend to hunt down the other trader and make things right. These are just the standards I set for myself and no one else.

I will say this: Honesty is rewarded in real life. Some of the highest paying positions out there require a squeaky clean record, good credit standing, and so forth. If you ever knowingly participate in any activity that ruins the above, you may have just removed yourself from an easy 6 figure salary range lifetime career.

Inureface · Feb 17, 2006, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Scamming is scamming, even if the guy who got scammed is stupid and didn't pay attention, the scammer is still at fault because he exploited your diverted attention or whatever. There is no justifying scamming just because you didn't pay attention. I don't think you'd exploit a bug then bitch to anet how its their fault for not noticing before you did and you had every right to abuse it.

Diablo™ · Feb 18, 2006, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDS

For some reason i cant send you pms... oh well, open letter i suppose:

Look, i'm not insulting your inteligence, or at least i am not trying to, all i am saying is, instead of complaining about how there are scammers people shoudl look at the root of the problem.

It's liek with gangs: "Gangs are full of morons who should be shot"

etc...

However none of thsoe people actually look as to why people join gangs, same goes for scammers, ban them ban them ban them, but everybody shuld take a moment and try to look at what is causing the scammers to exist. And combat that instead of the scammers.

To providee a fair analogy: It's like seeing a fire and poining the extinguisher at the top of the flames, nothign happens. You need to find the source.

+ As i said, i really find most of the "scams" as the 'victims' fault, lack of attention.

Without said lack of atention most scams wouldnt happen.

And in response to your above post: Yes, that is a textbook example of a scam if he knew that 45,000 gold was meant and not 45 gold, however, how will you manage to prove this if the other/seller did not specify 45 plat or 45,000 gold?

A poor homeless man has reasons to steal a loaf of bread to survive... does that make it ok to steal? or a jealous wive kills her husband's lover through a crime of passion, does that make it ok to murder? or a jewel theif whom steals only for entertainment?

There are many forms of crime, some are blatantly unjustifiable, others fall in the grey zone and are difficult to identify. But they are crimes nonetheless, because their justifications are based solely on emotions, and emotions alone does not justify ones' action. Law is reasoning without passion.

A scammer may have felt compelled to steal in order to keep up with the wealth of the others, but that does not answer to logic:

Did he lie to another player? Yes

is lying to another player wrong? Yes

thus the conclusion is reached. The law is black and white on this matter, there is no grey zone. What seems fair to you man not seem fair to others. Their hands was not guided by another, they alone decided to do what was wrong.

In the end the "law" is for Arena.net to decide, and they shall deliver rightful retributions. That does not mean victims should take their loss and ignore the disturbance.

---

You are right that the source is always an issue, but it is not one that is left unchecked, there are many discussions and efforts on Anet's part to reduce this "source" you speak of. It is not unknown, but how well they're reducing the problem is another thing...

Destruction Exile · Feb 18, 2006, 12:15 AM // 00:15

In every RPG or MMORPG game, everyone have been scammed before. Is nothing new. You just gotta keep your eyes open and dont get scam. Reporting scammers doesn't really do anyhting for you. because you dont even know the person and if thye get banned, who cares?? you still got scammed.

brian3 · Feb 18, 2006, 12:17 AM // 00:17

scammers a just s.o.bs and should be banned iv hade 3 2day for my green weapons, i think there just sad that they cant make mony to just buy them like the honest people of guildwars

Diablo™ · Feb 18, 2006, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destruction Exile

In every RPG or MMORPG game, everyone have been scammed before. Is nothing new. You just gotta keep your eyes open and dont get scam. Reporting scammers doesn't really do anyhting for you. because you dont even know the person and if thye get banned, who cares?? you still got scammed.

I agree, a very good point. The best defense against a scam is not to be scammed. More awareness on the recieving end of the sword can greatly reduce the damage. Of course, its understandable when someone falls victim to a scam for the first time, thus we live and learn.

A report however is not an effort to reclaim what was taken from you, but to prevent the scammer from continuing their ploy.

allience · Feb 18, 2006, 12:40 AM // 00:40

personally i don't think scaming is a big issue in guild wars. i mean ppl are responsible to inform themselves on prices of items. ppl that fall for the 100gold instead of 100k gold trades just didn't pay any attention whatsoever. those who let other ppl on their accnt are just silly. getting scamed by a runner? dunno man, u live and learn.

now a real scam is when some1 purposley tries to hack ur accnt by keyloggers or some other shit. but even in this case, it's the victim's fault for downloading hacks/bots/unauthorized stuff in the first place. i don't think Anet should pay attention to small petty scamers. i'm happy as long as they keep the game free of hacks and fix the bugs.

as sum1 used to say, 'if u can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen'. ppl need to stop complaining when they exploit bugs and it's their own fault they don't pay attention in trades.

Maxiemonster · Feb 18, 2006, 12:49 AM // 00:49

It's kinda lame that you can actually earn alot of money on scamming. You buy something for 40g because the one you're buying from thought it was 40K still earns you 39K 960g, and yes, people fall for this scam very easily. Even though people getting scammed are rather stupid, scamming is a lame thing, so don't start with it. Making use of common mistakes isn't a good thing, you might think "Woohoo! Another way to make money!", but you might've made a 10 year old boy cry because he was just a bit to hasty with buying your items. If you scam, think of that 10 year old boy every time, if you still continue to scam, hope it'll make you feel bad, since it should.

Getting scammed - Stupid.
Scamming - Heartless and selfish.

Diablo™ · Feb 18, 2006, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDS

Combine that with the fact that i am the only one who is defending some scammers who were 'forced' into it.

I do not think scammers were 'forced' into doing anything, they felt compelled, they were influenced, they had the urge, anything but 'forced'. There were no tangible imposition that forces anyone to scam other than the emotional desire to fulfill something.